Amino acids & heavy metals results

  • 35 Replies
  • 30511 Views
*

Offline olivia mary

  • **
  • 82
  • Gender: Female
  • Olivia Mary
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2008, 04:49:08 PM »
Hi Manal.....

You and Ahmed are in my heart and prayers. :hugfriend....I wish I had words for you or advice....but I don't even have them for myself  :wah. All I can say and Im sure many other friends who are facing Thal. can say is I know how you feel and you are not alone. :hugfriend
Kathleen...

ALso...Olivia had her appointment 6/30 it has been one month since her tx and her hb was a 8.7 2 weeks ago her hb was a 9.8. The drs don't want her to get below and 8. Is this normal? Should we be trying to get her hb to a 10?
Thanks Kathleen
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 04:54:24 PM by olivia mary »

*

Offline Andy Battaglia

  • *****
  • 8793
  • Gender: Male
  • Will thal rule you or will you rule thal?
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2008, 05:03:43 PM »
I don't know how much longer I can continue to hold my tongue on this topic. I do believe Manal is being taken advantage of and also believe she will soon be approached for even more funds to correct these deficiencies, which are fairly common in thals and normally correctable, and are no cause for alarm. I do not believe that any of the deficiencies are unrelated to thal.  The fact that this doctor has so alarmed Manal is very disturbing to me. I see no evidence at all that this doctor knows a single thing about thalassemia.

I actually prepared a very lengthy post on this topic but have not posted as I do not intend to cause Manal any offense. If Manal wishes to see my opinion on this I will agree to post it.
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

*

Offline Manal

  • *****
  • 3100
  • Gender: Female
  • mother of thal intermedia child
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2008, 12:03:34 AM »
Dear Kathleen

Thank you so much for your prayers.... i really need them :hugfriend. I  hope that Olivia would maintain her hb , but what is the opinion of her doctor concerning the re-use of hydrea by increasing the dose? Also what is his explaination that the hydrea was not working for her lately?

Please Kathleen keep us updated.


Dear Andy

Definetly i want to know your opinion. But how could you think that whatever you say will offend me. Your opinion is sooooooo important to me to the extent that when i write any post and i don't have your feedback, i actually don't feel comfortable. Though  we have never seen  each other, but i swear to God that i have endless trust in you in whatever you say. I know that you care about us all and that you are dedicated to our cause.

Actually i need your opinion because these days, everything is messed up in my mind. It is one of the hardest times of my life. It has been two years since my son was  diagnoised and i did nothing for him, i can not help him raise his Hb. In two months he will be 6 and time is running and i know that his low Hb won't help him even if his body got used to it.

Same time i can not see that this biological treatment is helping him as expected at least in the hematological part. Maybe it did in the growth or immunity but this is not our problem. I do believe it is important to correct this defiency but will it reflect on the HB???I  don't know. Sometimes i say enough giving my son all these injections (82 till now) and some other times i say finish this experment till the end, especially what is concerned with the deficienies because i am already giving him an overdose of all the multivitamins and they seem not enough.

What makes it really hard for me is that from the first day he was diagnoised i was living waitng for something to happen and this was giving me hope. This hope was distracting my mind from the idea of having ''thalassemia''. First i was waiting for the big bunch of multivitamis then resveratrol, aloe vera, then wheatgrass, hydrea, biological treatment, now carao.......... All this hoping and waiting and it is really hard to wait,i am now suffering from body aches on the day we make the CBC because i am always faced with a chain of disappointement. What's next, shall i continue ( till now i did not pay the doctor any thing expcept the price of the medicnes and i checked that they are the same prices as being sold in Germany) or shall i go back to the hydrea?? What shall i do, i can not survive like this waiting for nothing , i have to have hope in any coming thing?? I don't want to be faced with blood transfusion, it is NOT safe here.  I am living the worest time in my life.

Again Andy i want you to know that i am never offended from anyone in this site, especially YOU ,We all feel for each other more than our real families. i will be waiting for you opinion :hugfriend
manal

*

Offline olivia mary

  • **
  • 82
  • Gender: Female
  • Olivia Mary
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2008, 12:17:38 AM »
Hi Manal......

After reading your post I felt like I was writing it.   This is why my posts have been so breif as I cannot get my thoughts together.  :hugfriend

That was a good question regarding the hydroxyurea...if they felt it was not doing much for her before, why would it now......I will find out. I feel like I need to keep her as healthy as possible and will do whatever it takes...I am so sorry that the quality of blood is so poor by you...I can see why you want to avoid it at all costs. I know some people here in the US have direct donors ( I think that is what it is called) is that a possibility for you? I hope so.
Take care of youself Manal (  I know it is hard to do so ) for yourself and your family.

Kathleen

*

Offline Andy Battaglia

  • *****
  • 8793
  • Gender: Male
  • Will thal rule you or will you rule thal?
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 12:36:51 AM »
Kathleen,

I was bothered that hydroxyurea was discontinued so quickly with Olivia. Hb often drops in response to infection and should not result in a knee jerk reaction. It can take several months to return to normal after an infection and I don't see any reason to stop suddenly, especially since long term studies have shown that the maximum effect of hydroxyurea is not realized until the second and third year of use. These studies have been done outside the US and perhaps our doctors are not aware of them or do not give them enough credibility. If at all possible, find a qualified doctor who has much experience administering hydroxyurea to thalassemia patients and get a second opinion. It may be that Olivia is not one who will respond well enough to hydroxy but until now it has seemed to be maintaining her Hb level at a higher rate than lately, so another explanation such as infection may be responsible.

Perhaps a consultation with the Comprehensive centers in either Los Angeles or Oakland can give you a more conclusive answer.
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

*

Offline Andy Battaglia

  • *****
  • 8793
  • Gender: Male
  • Will thal rule you or will you rule thal?
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 01:20:14 AM »
Manal,

Thank you for your kind words. At times I feel that maybe I am trying to be too protective, especially when I see parents alarmed and upset by what they have been told. Sometimes it's simply a matter of a doctor having poor "bedside manner" and not understanding how to explain things in ways that do not upset parents and patients, and sometimes doctors talk about things of which they know little. You can take my words with a grain of salt if you wish because you have spoken to this doctor and have a better idea of his level of expertise regarding thalassemia than I do, but some of the things he has said have left me very skeptical. I consulted with a couple other members of this group about this and thank them for their counsel, but I do realize that I may be the only person here who may understand some of these complex issues (and I thank God for an unusual capacity to understand almost any subject I have ever encountered and for the good fortune to have passed this on to my children. I realize there are some who think because I do not work in the medical field that it means I have no knowledge and we did have a minor leave our group immediately upon finding that I am not a medical professional, but when I spoke to Drs Lucarelli and Sadoni in Dubai and saw their immediate acceptance of me because they were familiar with my work because of Khalifa, I did realize that if the top bone marrow transplant specialists in the world were willing to accept me, that I can't let it bother me when anyone feels I need to be a doctor to understand thalassemia). I go back to Gabri's post early on this subject and wish she was around right now because I have found her to be very knowledgeable about thalassemia and its treatment, but I will remind you that early on she said she lives in Germany and thought that if this treatment did what they claimed, that German patients should be aware of it and are not.

So here is the post I wrote on Saturday.

I cannot agree with this doctor. He is beginning to sound too much like the fake hakims like Ghulam, who confuse cause and effect. I believe all of your son's deficiencies are related to thalassemia and are not some seperate condition from thal. I also am extremely skeptical of the high copper reading and think it is most likely due to contamination by the tube the blood was in. Very simply, the physical stresses of thalassemia, especially excessive hemolysis which causes the destruction of red blood cells, depletes vitamins and minerals from the body. These have to be replaced. If your son's diet gives him an adequate intake of vitamin A, then you must look elsewhere for an explanation, and typically this will be found in inadequate zinc supplementation and/or poor liver function. Slow thyroid can also come into play.

For a long time I have been fairly quiet about this treatment and now I feel I should have spoken up sooner. I do not believe that injecting animal extracts into your body can do anything other than expose one to bacteria ( http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no6/carey.htm ) and other contaminants and empty one's wallet. There are no 4 steps to creating hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is created by equal amounts of alpha and beta globins forming together to create hemoglobin. If one or more of the genes responsible for production of these globins is defective, the result is alpha or beta thalassemia of different degrees depending on how many and how severely mutated or deleted the genes are. Although many beta thalassemia are the result of a substitution of one amino acid with another in the gene, ingesting or injecting the missing amino acids will not change one's DNA nor the instructions in the DNA that are responsible for the creation of these genes. Even gene therapy does not hope to change the gene one is born with but rather supply enough copies of a good gene that can create beta globin to make up for the inefficiency of the gene one has from birth. The beta hemoglobins are actually caused by a wide range of mutations, substitutions and deletions in the beta gene and the idea that these genetic faults can all be corrected by taking bovine gland extract doesn't make scientific sense. This is why so much research is in the area of reactivating the gamma gene to resume production of the gamma part of fetal hemoglobin, rather than trying to produce more beta globin.

Most of the information available about Vitorgan is what has been supplied by the company itself, similar to the case with Dr Mathur, and this bothers me because there is no credible confirmation of any of the claims this company makes. However, there is a German report about Vitorgan's product called NeyTumorin, which purportedly can cure cancer,  at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9244964

Quote
Allewelt MC, Hauser SP.

Studiengruppe Methoden mit unbewiesener Wirksamkeit in der Onkologie, Schweizerische Krebsliga, Bern.

NeyTumorin is a combination of peptides and proteins of 15 different organs from fetal and young pigs and cows. The list of indications ranges from cancer prevention to long-term treatment of malignancies. One vial of NeyTumorin-Sol costs DM 122.34. The therapy for a patient with a T1-2N0M0 cancer costs about DM 16,500 and an advanced stage up to over DM 100,000. The inventor of the Cytoplasmatic Therapy is K.E. Theurer. About 40 years ago, he founded the Vitorgan-Pharmaceutical Company which produces and distributes NeyTumorin. It is claimed that "physiological repair aids" from the cytoplasm of healthy animal organs induce a "hygiogenization" of the disturbed metabolism and NeyTumorin has immunogenic and immuno-modulatory effects which are important for the efficacy. The promotors classify NeyTumorin as a biological response modifier. The components of NeyTumorin are not defined. Preclinical investigations showing direct cytostatic and immunomodulatory effects are not sufficiently documented. Often extremely high concentrations of NeyTumorin were used. Clinical studies including prospective randomized trials are not conclusive because of false or insufficient documentation. There is no proof for either the claimed mechanism of action nor for a clinical efficacy.

PMID: 9244964 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Unscrupulous practitioners take advantage of the normal fears and anxiety of patients and parents to enrich themselves. Creating great anxiety is a tool to manipulate people into investing even more money into questionable "cures". Manal, when I see the anxiety that this doctor has caused you I feel I must at the very least express my views on this. I doubt you can find a single thalassemia specialist on earth that would recommend this treatment. This doctor's claims about about politics and economies is pure nonsense when it comes to thalassemia. The top doctors in the field, such as Wood, Porter, Piga, Cohen, Vichinsky et al are among the most dedicated doctors in any field. The thought that these doctors would ignore any effective treatment is absurd. I feel that this doctor is most likely setting you up for his next expensive "therapy", which he will tell you will correct these deficiencies, which can most likely be corrected with supplementation. As I mentioned earlier, a vitamin A deficiency may actually be the result of inadequate zinc intake. I don't want to see you invest more money in therapy that will most likely lead nowhere and keep you from pursuing proper treatment for your son. I do feel that a longer trial of hydroxyurea along with wheatgrass and resveratrol would probably have a much more positive effect than this current direction. A much better investment would be a consultation at a Comprehensive Care center in the US, where you would be able to get an accurate prognosis for your son and have a treatment program designed based on your son's particular needs.

It is one thing to blame the system for a therapy not being known, but it altogether another, to NOT be able to back up your claims with data, which this doctor has never done. If this worked, he would be able to show you case studies rather than make claims about unknown patients in Bahrain. If this worked, he would have patients giving testimonials. If any therapy worked, patients would be jumping up and down with the news. There is a good track record for hydroxyurea working for many patients with long term use. For those in which it does work, there is evidence that long term therapy over 2-3 years produces much better results than what is seen in the first year. This is real and studies have found this to be true. This doctor and the company he works for have never produced any study to show that their products work. After 40 years this is incredulous. By now they should have a long record of success if their products worked as claimed but they do not. I feel they take advantage of cancer patients and now patients with thalassemia. Their lack of data to back their claims up is astounding after their long history of doing business. My opinion is this is intentional as to make sure they are not supplying the data that would prove their claims to be false.

Please take some time to relax and organize your thoughts in an objective manner. I am disgusted by this doctor causing of alarm and anxiety in you but these are the tools that are used to convince even the most intelligent, because fear can erase rational thinking when one has been properly manipulated. Instead of being alarmed at what this doctor has told you, you should be alarmed at what was found in the article above about false documentation being provided. At the very least, please consult with a thalassemia specialist and not just any hematologist and see what is thought of this therapy and if if the specialist thinks there is any possibility that it could work.

Manal, I have an immense respect for you and your intelligence and as I said, I do not wish you to take any offense and am sure you understand that I am only asking you to look out for your son's best interests. I do realize how difficult it is when the diagnosis is intermedia and a more borderline case may not exist in terms of whether or not to transfuse. Because of this, I would highly recommend a consultation with a top specialist just as I recommended for Sharmin's son. I would also ask you to refrain from making any decision until we hear from Sharmin and she can give her analysis of what she thinks of what Dr Vichinsky has to say about her son. If Dr Vichinsky proves to be everything I believe him to be, I would suggest you waste no time in contacting a true specialist in the field and make sure it is one with a vast experience treating intermedias and not just majors. There are some therapies that may prove to be of help to intermedias especially and I do think that some of these are worth a try as long as your son's Hb can be maintained above 7.

And to everyone, there are excellent specialists in the field of thalassemia and I recommend them very highly as they are the true experts and they are doing a wonderful job with their patients.

I really have struggled with whether or not to post here and largely this is because this company has been so incredibly vague about their processes and the claims they make, and also because I feel I may be overstepping. It is very hard to pin anything down, but this does lead me to question their credibility.
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

*

Offline Manal

  • *****
  • 3100
  • Gender: Female
  • mother of thal intermedia child
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 05:07:35 AM »
For the past two hours i have been reading your post several times. I am very alarmed with what they found about this  NeyTumorin!!!!!!!! Knowing that those products can be purchased online or over the counter made me think that all the way they are safe or at least if there is no benefit, there would be no harm.

Andy you make a lot of sense . I will follow your advice and wait for sharmin and it is true i need to relax and definetly something has to be done.

Quote
There are some therapies that may prove to be of help to intermedias especially and I do think that some of these are worth a try as long as your son's Hb can be maintained above 7.
Do you mean other things other than the hydrea?????????

Andy , no words can describ how grateful i am to you, i am not offended at all . My family is blessed to have you in our life. thank you

*

Offline maha

  • ****
  • 424
  • Gender: Female
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 12:36:20 PM »
Hi Manal
I can feel your confusion. When I started Hassan on homeo medicines I had really tried to learn about homeopathy. One pharmacist(homeo) had warned me to be careful and to find if the doc I was dealing with was genuine. When I told him if my son would not benifit from the meds it would also not cause him any harm. He said it was a wrong notion, if the potencies of these medicines are not calculated carefully they can have very serious side effects ranging from kidney stones, bladder stones to tumours and by the time the patient learns about this he probably is longer on the meds and does not relate it to homeopathy.
Manal, Bahrain is just an hours drive from here.If your doc can give the address of the cured brothers we can probably find a way to meet and talk to them.
Take care
maha

*

Offline Andy Battaglia

  • *****
  • 8793
  • Gender: Male
  • Will thal rule you or will you rule thal?
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 01:21:22 PM »
Manal,

I am talking of a combination of hydroxyurea, wheatgrass, resveratrol, carao and any other natural Hb inducers. I think that using the combination will produce better results than just hydroxyurea alone. I have also posted previously about a study that showed hydroxyurea was boosted by the use of homeopathic meds along with it.

One other thing I want to mention about seeing a specialist is so your son can have a thorough physical examination. This can help greatly in determining whether or not transfusion will be recommended. If his growth and physical development is adequate in the eyes of a specialist familiar with intermedia, then continuing to treat him without transfusion is warranted.
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

*

Offline sah

  • **
  • 50
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 06:37:00 PM »
Hi Manal,
I really feel for you.Please do as Andy advises.Ahmed is in my prayers. :pray. Don't worry, everything will be fine.May GOD bless you all.

*

Offline Sharmin

  • *****
  • 4155
  • Gender: Female
  • Little A
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2008, 05:59:26 AM »
Hi Manal,

I hope our dear Ahmad is doing well.  I will get back to you as soon as we see the doctor.  My thoughts and prayers are with you.  I hope that his hg increases without the need for transfusions.  Something good will happen soon - I'll see what I can find out.  Take care my friend. 

Love Sharmin  :hugfriend :hugfriend
Sharmin

*

Offline Manal

  • *****
  • 3100
  • Gender: Female
  • mother of thal intermedia child
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2008, 10:52:23 AM »
Thank so much Sah and Sharmin for your concern :hugfriend
manal

*

Offline Manal

  • *****
  • 3100
  • Gender: Female
  • mother of thal intermedia child
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2008, 12:27:54 AM »
Andy i made three appointments  on Saturday with an endocrinolgist familiar with thal, hematologist (thal) and the biological treatment doctor and i will let you know what each will say.

I will prepare a file of my son and send it too to Dr. Vichinsky though i am sure that he would be busy to answer back but i will give it a try

I will get back to you. Thanks foe being there
manal

*

Offline olivia mary

  • **
  • 82
  • Gender: Female
  • Olivia Mary
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2008, 01:48:01 AM »
Manal,

Please send his file to Dr vichinsky...I feel they will get back to you and can be of great help.

Kathleen

*

Offline Sharmin

  • *****
  • 4155
  • Gender: Female
  • Little A
Re: Amino acids & heavy metals results
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2008, 05:45:15 PM »
Hi Manal,

I also think you should send his file to Dr. Vichinsky.  I have more info for you - I will be in touch in a couple of days.  There are effective and less toxic ways to induce hg - I will get more info to you as soon as possible. 
I also have info for antibodies - which I will begin posting once I get home. 

Take care,
love,
Sharmin
Sharmin

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk