Gaza massacre

I am offended too,

First of all Pakistani people ARE peace loving ,there is not a question of "might be".

Laskar-e-Taiba or Jamat-ud Dawa are originated from Afghanistan right? Taliban are from Afganistan right? Who backed up Taliban in the first place? When Russia entered Afghanistan,who loaded them with missiles an ammunition? Yes US did.So i guess when someone is fighting your enemy ,they are "Mujahideen" and when they fight against you for what they consider is right they are "Terrorist" ,Damn right.

When ever US planes hit in our northern areas on so-called training camps,they happened to be Madrassas, with innocent kids learning islamic education in them,i remember once US planes hit a Madrassa and hundreds of innocent kids died their,were they terrorist?and you may say that the Madrassa was serving as a hiding for terrorists,so that is what you do,kill the innocents along with the accused? How would you feel if they were American kids?

I can't understand why the term extremist is always related with Muslims,i had that question in mind when i posted that photo,i was never mixing Israelis and Jewish people,there are always good and bad people in every nation or religion ,so of course all Jewish people would not support the brutality of Israeli attacks,just as many many Muslims condemn 9/11,though it's a controversial issue and i don't wanna argue about Jewish lobby's involvement in this,Go check YouTube.

Muslims are terrorist because they kill people ,And according to western media mostly non Muslim people right ? So why isn't Israel a terrorist when it kills innocents in Gaza,why would US support Israel? Why would US give them all advanced weaponry to test on Plaestinians,Israel stops water,switch off elecricity ,even in the hospitals ,medicines are not available,but no again they can't be terrorists and they have full US support.

Why isn't US terroris when they hit Madrassa in Pakistan,wedding ceremonies in Afghanistan and again support Israel in killing Palestinians.

You say why Pakistani citizens choose to ignore this,i ask why US citizens not reach out for the truth?

Just tell me why 20000 people alone in US converted to Islam,if that is such an unjust religion ( NAUZ BILLAH).

Accept Islam and all problems will be solved.Any kind of innocent killing is not done on behalf of Islam,they are people of weak believes as Manal said,and they can exist in any faith.

Zaini.

Jake said,

I don't know much about the Gaza issue, so can't comment on that,

Well well first line tells the whole story. This surely depicts the anti-muslim thoughts you have. When someone was busy killing hundreds of innocent people for 22 days and forget the 22 days, this is happening since so many years now. But no, you know nothing about it .... or maybe you are somewhat speechless on this.

Highly trained terrorist can do this. As, I mentioned earlier they were trained.

So you admit, that Pakistanis are smart and they have sophisticated technology and techniques. Can Pakistan be that stupid that they send their own man which have ID cards in their pockets  Wouldn't it be easy to buy some Achoots (which are treated worse than animals in so called Secular India), the Achoots are sure angry enough to do anything to take a revenge.

Also consider that theives enter your house despite the fact that you have security guards on door, who would you blame?? guards right. Since there are only two options to break security, kill the guards or make them part of your gang. So if terrorist entered by dogging indian naval defence, strong action should have been taken againsts them right?

Let me take you bit back in time, Samjhota Express was attacked in India killing mostly Pakistanis. As usual, it was to be blamed to Pakistan. But time and investigation revealed that Colonel Purohit of India was involved. I am quote this from a news site

Third important development, which has sent shivers down everybody’s spine in India, occurred a month ago when the shocking revelation was made that some officers of Indian army and intelligence were involved in many bloody episodes of bomb blasts in India, including Samjhuta Express bomb explosion that killed 68 people mostly Pakistanis. Anti Terrorist Squad (ATS) branch of India arrested Lt. Colonel and military intelligence officer Karat Purohit, and another army officer in this regard. According to the Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS), “Col Purohit has been clandestinely working with terror networks, organising funds, ammunition and training for Sangh Parivar activists to carry out bomb blasts.”

Meanwhile, Col Purohit has also been granted bail despite the fact that the provincial government had claimed that it has incontrovertible evidence of his involvement in terrorists’ activities. In this regard, the article published in countercurrent.com under the caption of “Mumbai terror attack: further evidence of the Anglo-American-Mossad-RSS nexus” by Ameresh Mishra – an Indian writer, historian and poet – is also of worth reading. In this article he analyses Mumbai attacks as a “joint operation by RSS and Mossad” by emphasising that “the attackers would not have come from the sea route without some kind of a connivance of Gujarat and Maharashtra governments with the terrorists and the connivance of RSS type Hindutva elements…” India is basking in the glow of the sympathies of the world community after the Mumbai carnage, and is in a position to pressurise Pakistan as much as it can. So, it has embarked upon the task of lashing out at Pakistan which is already in a mess due to its internal problems. Nevertheless, the need is to realise that Mumbai attacks are as much disastrous for Pakistan as these are for India. So, it is quite clear that whoever has masterminded and carried out Mumbai attacks wanted to bring Pakistan in disrepute, and India is now trying to get Pakistan declared as a terrorist state.

So this is said by Indian writer, don't blame me.

Jake, Since you are such ignorant about innocent muslims being killed, i bet you don't know anything about Kashmir. Despite the numerous resolutions by UN to hold referendum, India keeps on chanting the same "Atoot Ang" (which means Unbreakable part i think). Since you spend lot of time searching for links proving pakis terrorist, plz take sometime and explore Kashmir issue as well.


@topic, it seems like Gaza has reached a cease fire, this topic itself needs a peace resolution.

I was not going to comment again and have not, despite wanting to a couple of times .... but, this is just unacceptable to me.

Jake said,
 Can Pakistan be that stupid that they send their own man which have ID cards in their pockets  Wouldn't it be easy to buy some Achoots (which are treated worse than animals in so called Secular India), the Achoots are sure angry enough to do anything to take a revenge.

Who the @@@@ are you to call anyone an untouchable ("achoot") and ascribe motives to them? Are you even aware how seriously we take this issue in India, the number of positive discrimination laws which exist to undo the previous social ills, how far the "downtrodden" have progressed in India? The Chief Minister of the most populous state of India. Uttar Pradesh, is your so-called "achoot" class - SHE dreams of being the prime minister of India .... and, hundreds of millions of people dream along with her. It may even become a reality in May 2009. So, watch your language.

And, while we are name-calling, may I respectfully ask this: the men of which nation use RAPE to enforce their backward, tribal norms??

Let me take you bit back in time, Samjhota Express was attacked in India killing mostly Pakistanis. As usual, it was to be blamed to Pakistan. But time and investigation revealed that Colonel Purohit of India was involved. I am quote this from a news site

So this is said by Indian writer, don't blame me.

Yes, absolutely right .... but let us complete the picture, shall we. All the plotters were arrested by Indian police forces on evidence collected by them, without fear or favour, and without being prodded by any one. The alleged perps are in jail, charge sheets have been recently filed and the men and one woman shall stand trial. If found guilty, they will go to jail for minimum 10 years to life.

What has Pakistan done about the LeT and JuD and the various other assorted madmen? BTW, Tariq, the Pakistani govt has *finally* agreed that the Mumbai terrorists came from Pakistan - so, get over the delusion, will you.

And, I can assure you that the world sees the difference in conduct.

I do hope you guys wake up soon, before your nation is wiped out by the talibs. I hear they are already enforcing no-music, no-movies, no-nothing rules on Lahore.

Poirot

PS: Kashmir just voted - average turnout 68%. National Conference-Congress coalition govt sworn in. Separatist head Geelani says that maybe the Hurriyat did not understand what the ordinary Kashmiris wanted. The battle for hearts and mind is over. Secular and high-growth India won. Time to move on.

To everyone,

After all is said and done, it add up to " we are all the same ,we have the same" needs" maybe different "wants".
Lets not argue among ourselves we are all priceless Human-beings

To Manal and Zaini  Unless one has walk in your shoes and face your worries  one cannot undestand your situations therefore. one can never told you who you are.
Its useless getting angry you are wasting your energy.
There are discrimination in all societies regardless and some more than others.

Be the wiser because you both are.
Love from Kathy




Kathy

Who the @@@@ are you to call anyone an untouchable ("achoot")

We don't, you and your society do. Like you yourself said

the number of positive discrimination laws which exist to undo the previous social ills

Since you are trying to keep your eyes closed and ignore the realities of atrocities happening with in your own homeland.I would suggest you search for Dalits in India on youtube and see for yourself. The Gaza violence and massacre is nothing compared to what you would get to see. If you are trying to hide it, then its another issue. Just explain to the people here why do you call them Dalits and what is the concept behind it in Indian. Your famous award winning muslm composer AR Rehman was a Dallit who was not even allowed to enter the music studio. Separate arrangement was made for him to play his instrument outside the studio because he was untouchable. He then converted to Islam and is now considered acceptable by your so called secular society.

the men of which nation use RAPE to enforce their backward, tribal norms

Do u really think i or any sane person will support this...No....we too condemn it, and you will know if you have access to our local newspapers. But again, since every insane act finally links up to politics, we common people cannot do anything but to condemn that.

Please understand the difference between religion and people acts.To tell the fact, movies and musics are not allowed in Islam. Its just that we are not following Islam in its true essence.

After all is said and done, it add up to " we are all the same ,we have the same" needs" maybe different "wants".
Lets not argue among ourselves we are all priceless Human-beings

Very true, Kathy.

I "want" a Lamborghini !!!

Poirot

Tariq:

Let us get something very clear here ...... India is not heaven, nowhere close to it, and parts of it are actually hell. I do not have my eyes closed to what my nation is .... at the same time, I have a sense for what my nation can become. I will be the first to condemn the mess made by our politicians .... I have no false pride in my country, and do not/will not rush to defend every single thing that it does.

Does caste-based discrimination not happen in India today? Of course, it does.

Does it mean it is accepted by us? No.

We have special and stringent laws to deal with caste-driven atrocities .... and people are punished when guilty. We also have positive discrimination such as reservations for backward communities in schools, colleges and govt jobs. It takes time to undo ages-old discrimination. There was "institutionalised" colour-based discrimination (Jim Crow laws) in the US even in the 70's. In India TODAY, institutionalised discrimination or atrocities are few and far between - and, are dealt with very harshly, if and when it happens.

I do not know whether you know this: the so-called "backward castes" control the legislatures of UP, Bihar, MP, Rajasthan and Tamil Nadu in India. They also provide the single largest block of MPs to our parliament and formulate policies. So, we have come a long way, although lot still remains to be done.

But, this issue does not affect you, does it, apart from "showing India down"? Are the "backward castes" sending terrorists into Pakistan?

However, we are affected by the crap that happens in Pakistan - we are now spending money on defence, which could be better spent on education, health care and sanitation in India. We spend c. 10% of our GDP on defence - how stupid is that for a poor country, who has over 300m people subsisting on less than $2 a day. But. we are FORCED to spend this money, because we have a very unstable, psychotic neighbour.

Who cares about A R Rehman's religion? Did he really convert? If he was treated so badly in India, why does he still live here and sell his craft here? We just like his music, as we like the music of Mohammed Rafi (among others). Did you know that Bollywood is powered by muslim actors? Do we care about their religion? No. We just care about the quality of the entertainment they provide us.

Is Islam really against music and movies? How silly. So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?

Poirot

PS: Secular means the separation of religion and state - neither shall interfere in the matters of the other. And, yes, we are a secular republic. Why does that cause you so much angst?

Chinese intelligence could be involved in Mumbai attacks. Editorial in Indian website.

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/20391.asp

Story can change this time also just like it did in Samjhota Express attack.

Is Islam really against music and movies? How silly. So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?

Not according to me, but Islamic beliefs. Please study Islam or don't talk about it at all. Whatever practice which was not done in time of Muhammad PBUH is not part of Islam. Again, plz atleast try to understand (i know its hard) the difference between religion and personal acts/culture.

Chinese intelligence could be involved in Mumbai attacks. Editorial in Indian website.

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/20391.asp

Story can change this time also just like it did in Samjhota Express attack.

Please ...... can we be serious here and quote responsible sources, not just any random website. The *Pakistani govt* now says that India has provided "good evidence" and it is acting to apprehend the perps. Some are already behind bars. So, can we please stop with the delusions.

Not according to me, but Islamic beliefs. Please study Islam or don't talk about it at all. Whatever practice which was not done in time of Muhammad PBUH is not part of Islam. Again, plz atleast try to understand (i know its hard) the difference between religion and personal acts/culture.

You are right, it is truly hard for me to understand .... on one hand, you have the Talibs (the pure) saying that only they are the true followers and they are the enforcers of *true* Islam. OTOH, you imply, even if you do not say it, personal acts/culture can be different ....... so, which one is it?

Study Islam? How can I when all "true-believers" insist that you have to study it in Arabic, and not any other language?
(BTW, this is what the Brahmin priests used to say back in c. 500 AD about religious texts in Sanskrit, which led to Buddha winning many converts because he preached in Pali, the local language).
Please recommend a good English text, and I will be happy to peruse it.

I truly envy Europe with its "post-religious" thinking.

Anyway, I am done posting on this thread.

Poirot

Whatever practice which was not done in time of Muhammad PBUH is not part of Islam.

One last thing, Tariq:

By the definition you propose above, electricity, automobiles, L1/Exjade and the internet should all be un-Islamic?

Also, AK-47s?

 

Poirot

I was expecting this from you, Islam is a way of life not the tools we use. i told you its hard....keep trying
Arabic is not a hard language, u can learn it if you want. Arabic is prefered because that is the language the original Quran was in, and translations are human.

I see ..... god's wisdom was revealed to the Prophet, and then the words just wrote themselves down on a book, without any third-party intervention.

I trust you do have and only read the original book .... who knows what human intervention might have done in the publishing business.

Meanwhile, let me get on with my life instead ...... thanks for chatting with me.

sure, no need to thank. Pleasure is all mine 

All fellow members of the site, 

Just tell me if attacking anyone's religion or Prophet is right? I am really offended and i protest.

Kathy ,

Thanks for your kind words.

Zaini.

 "has any of you visited US? Muslims or any other culture people are treated with respect. they can roam around freely and do all what they want. they work with us and they can whatever they want with us. we are a free nation and all are welcome. is that allowed in any muslim country? i have heard of females not allowed to go to school in afghanistan, females having problems with their husbands and still having to live with them in many muslim countries. "


I am not so sure that everyone is treated with respect and equally in the US. Are you not aware of the discrimination between white and black there?.  Had it not been for the economic crisis in America, I do not think Obama would have won and before this year no black man made it to the white house.  Only yesterday on the news they were saying that though presidency has gone to a non-white, the gap between the white and the black is being enlarged because of the removal of the policy to provide school bus to students.  

"i have heard of females not allowed to go to school in afghanistan, females having problems with their husbands and still having to live with them in many muslim countries. "

I totally disagree, do not take traditions and culture for Islam.  What people do does not point to the religion.  If a thief is muslim, it does mean that Islam preaches robbery.  Religion is  there with its precepts but people interprete the precepts differently and there are varying degrees of compliance.Religion sets out the rules to follow but what a person does is his own decision.  Women have every the right to divorce in Islam, even before marrying the woman/girl has to give her consent.  If this is not followed do not blame the religion but blame the tradition of that region.  Women are thought to be the nurturers of tomorrow's citizens and they have to be educated in order to pass on this education to their offspring.


As far as I know, Islam preaches the respect of every other religion.  Each one has his own beliefs and please respect the beliefs of others though you may not believe in them.  You may question a certain belief but do not mock it.

"Is Islam really against music and movies? How silly. So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?"
As far as I know it is the show of semi nakedness in certain movies that are not accepted.  You also have to agree that the way the actors and actresses dress influences our youngsters choice of dress and even behaviour, so certain movies are not at all good for the eyes of the young.   I do not know if you have seen such an effect in your country but working with adolescents this is what I have observed.


"So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?"

They are who they are and they may believe in whatever they want, who are we to judge?  I believe that I am not perfect so I have to change myself before even thinking of judging others.

Jade