Gaza massacre

Hi Umair,
I have had religion lessons at my protests highschool, but we learned alone in year 1 about that other religions than Chr. and Jew. After highschool I started to teach myself more about history. Our education level at schools are pretty low. It's not caused by teachers, but our government.

A Dutch writer, Kader Abdollah, has written a book about Prophet Mohammed and rewrite the Quran in Dutch last year. My mother bought it and she did not even read it out. She told me it was very bad written. She is a teacher Dutch, so we don't waste more of our time on that ;) .

Thank you for the tips. Though I will search on my own or contact my Turkish friend. And yes, we have 2 mosques in our city. Last year I was too late for the guided tour, but the food was excellent.

We'll close this subtopic now.

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Poirot, don't you see a difference between Hamas and Palestians? I do.

I know Israel did ask for that, but they never keep themselves on the resolution. They blokkade Gaza Strip. Gaza had never enough electricity and there was a lack of everything.

What would you do in such situation?

You see, you can't blame only one party

Poirot,

Looks like everyone on this group is completely agreed about the bestiality of Israel.

Well you are a little bit wrong here. We humans are sharing our personal opinions and thoughts here. We are not representing India, Israel, Pakistan here, we are humans. Whenever whereever innocent people are killed, be it anybody's fault,.........its wrong. Thats what we agree on.

If you have read my comments, i myself being a Pakistani have blamed my own countrymen and Arabs also....why? Because i can face the facts and say what i believe is truth.

no one shall attack us continuously and get away with it

I think statement is true for both attacking and attacked sides right?? If yes, then war will continue in a cycle don't you think. It would become a never ending story.

Regarding you being sorry for us Pakis....lets not start it here. Other than Army and mullahs, there live some 160 million human beings here. We know who envy's our fertile land of the Indus basin and planning to block our rivers.

India does not even have to do anything, we will just watch, in pain

A lil piece of advise, while you are busy watching us in pain, ask someone to watch your back, as you know how many separatist movements are there in your country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372_pf.html

Hamas Sweeps Palestinian Elections, Complicating Peace Efforts in Mideast

By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 27, 2006; A01

RAMALLAH, West Bank, Jan. 26 -- The radical Islamic movement Hamas won a large majority in the new Palestinian parliament, according to official election results announced Thursday, trouncing the governing Fatah party in a contest that could dramatically reshape the Palestinians' relations with Israel and the rest of the world.

In Wednesday's voting, Hamas claimed 76 of the 132 parliamentary seats, giving the party at war with Israel the right to form the next cabinet under the Palestinian Authority's president, Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Fatah.

Fatah, which has dominated the legislature since the previous elections a decade ago and the Palestinian cause for far longer, won 43 seats. A collection of nationalist, leftist and independent parties claimed the rest.

The US and Israel refused to deal with Hamas, instead recognizing the minority Fatah as the government of Palestine. Like it or not, Hamas did win a majority in the election.

Israel has had a choke hold over Gaza and this had led to a resumption in rocket attacks on Israel. Israel never held up its part of the ceasefire, keeping borders closed and depriving the area of basic necessities, in a belief that if conditions are bad enough under Hamas, that the people will turn on Hamas. A belief that is strange. It didn't work in Iraq either. Instead it created terrorists where none had existed previously. It doesn't work. It only creates even more hatred. What Israel is doing now is criminal and the callous disregard they have shown for the innocent citizens of Gaza is disgusting and no less heinous than the acts of the recent Mumbai terrorists. Both are utter and random, but the destruction in Gaza is far more extensive, as Israel bombs anything related to government there, with the "collateral damage" destroying mosques and homes and businesses and schools and hospitals without discretion.  Acceptance of any of this behavior is acceptance of the idea that humans can ever be anymore than crude beasts.

Andy,

My mistake on the sequence of Hamas and Fatah fighting in Gaza - I was under the *mistaken* impression that Hamas won their elections after ousting Fatah from Gaza. Actually, they started to oust Fatah physically and militarily from Gaza in May 2006, after winning the elections in Jan 2006.

So, you win the elections and then kill your opposition. Nice democratic party, eh?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4983510.stm

Then, there was the whole issue of Hamas not willing to remove "the destruction of Israel" as one of its core aims - why would any sane party negotiate with some one committed to its destruction? I would put the Israeli and the US embargo in this context. Egypt, Jordan, and even S Arabia now recognise the right of Israel to exist - Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah do not. Why should Israel EVER negotiate with these folks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Did you know that even Jordan has banned Hamas as a terrorist organisation? These matters are not black and white.

Peartree,
If I was dependent on my neighbour for electricity and work, I would not call for the destruction of that neighbour. This is what Hamas has done. If the people of Gaza want to blame anyone for this colossal tragedy in human lives, they have only their own government to blame.

And I am not blaming only one party, but as a neutral observer, I see that over the past ten years Israel has moved a lot in trying to carve up a two-nation state where both the Jews and Palestinians can live in peace. Israel has even used its army to forcefully remove settlers from both Gaza and the West Bank. But, I can see only hostility from Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah in return. When Fatah wants to negotiate a solution, Hamas kills them in a fratricidal civil war.

Tariq,
Dude, whatever.
I know I speak for most Indians, barring a few fundamentalist nutcases who will never set policy in India - we have no desire to take any part of Pakistan into India. Why would we want to depress our GDP and growth?

I really, really wish you guys all the best in dealing with your in-house problems - we genuinely want to see a democratic and stable neighbour. Then, we can just concentrate on eliminating poverty in our country, instead of having to spend 8-10% of our budget on defence.

Everyone,
No offence meant to anyone here and I will not be taking this dialogue any further on my side. I just wanted to present the other side of the picture to everyone.

Cheers

Rockets have been fired into northern Israel from Lebanon, raising fears the Israeli offensive in Gaza may spread.

Israel's army responded with artillery to a barrage of at least three rockets. No group has claimed responsibility.

@ BBC News

It's like a powder keg now. I am not sure of they ever thought that this could happen.

 

So, you win the elections and then kill your opposition. Nice democratic party, eh?
 

As I said, like it or not, they won.

If Israel would actually ever abide by the terms of a ceasefire, we could see if the other side is willing to change their attitude, but Israel has continued to suffocate Gaza, contrary to the terms of the ceasefire. Jimmie Carter came away from Hamas with the idea that they could be flexible but now we won't know if they were giving Carter a lot of BS or if they would have been willing to accept an Israeli state as they had hinted, as long as Israel stopped the occupation.

I won't say Hamas is not to blame also, but this reaction by Israel is as has been characterized here, a massacre. It won't solve any problem and the destruction visited on Gaza will only come back to haunt Israel. What Israel wants is the same exact thing that all terrorists wish...that their actions create total terror in the public. It is terror of the highest degree and it needs to stop, just as the violence perpetrated on India from Pakistan has to stop. (How much longer before Pakistan even admits that it was Pakistanis who were behind the latest attacks? It gives Pakistan's government little credibility when they fire the national security adviser after he admits that the terrorist caught was from Pakistan! This won't help. Pakistan knows it has a problem and unless they confront it, things will go very badly in the future, as India will not sit silently as attack after attack comes. If Pakistan does nothing to root out the terror training camps and nothing to bring these criminals to justice, India will act and I am sure it will be a disaster for all). We have to reach a point in the history of humanity where violence is no longer used to solve problems.

It has always been the case in the past that when a certain group is selected and persecuted, they gather more followers and this brings in more fighters for that cause.  So I agree totally with Andy:"Israel never held up its part of the ceasefire, keeping borders closed and depriving the area of basic necessities, in a belief that if conditions are bad enough under Hamas, that the people will turn on Hamas. A belief that is strange. It didn't work in Iraq either. Instead it created terrorists where none had existed previously. It doesn't work. It only creates even more hatred."

The argument Israel used for that offensive was to reinforce the Fattah's political power over Hamas and the exact opposite has been obtained.  They kill children and they do not want retaliation.  Parents watching their children die, though they could not have been in favor of Hamas initially,  will most certainly turn into Hamas activists.

The definition of terrorist is as follows:the calculated use of violence against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear.  The argument Israel used for that offensive was to reinforce the Fattah's political power over Hamas, therefore it can be said that Israel is also a terrorist state.



It is really sad to see so many children dying and Israel says it is looking for terrorists only, are these children terrorists?

Hi Poirot,

Then, there was the whole issue of Hamas not willing to remove "the destruction of Israel" as one of its core aims - why would any sane party negotiate with some one committed to its destruction?

I would like to tell you that this is not specificly concerning Isreal, this ''destruction'' will be the target for any colonizers, whether they are isreali, X, Y, or Z. Again in our beliefs we will never stop unless we free the land, same as in Iraq with the States or with any colonizer, so yes it is an aim to get rid of people taking their land.

The moot question here is why does Egypt enforce the SAME blockade? Please answer me that.

Isreal plan is to put Gaza under Egypt's superviosn through the opening of the boarders so that in the future  for a reason or another they will  put their hands over Sinai (Egypt).

Some people in Egypt agree with opening the boarders and are completly opposing the government and other are not.  Although i am opposing the general performance of the government, i don't agree about opening the boarders because this will threat the security of Egypt, imagine that you are sitting in your house with your door open, you have no control on any thing , You are threaten by terreoists, extremists, even isreali troops can have any excuse for passing by. BUT i agree with what is going now which is conditioned opening of boarders
1- To pass injured civilans to go to hospitals to get their treatment
2- On daily basis, many trucks of food and drugs pass the boarders to reach the people there

What will help the people is not opening the boarders but what will help is that the presidents of the Arab world including egypt do anything to preasure isreal to stop fire. Opening the boarder will not save the people, it will only increase the area of Gaza no more

Egypt, Jordan, and even S Arabia now recognise the right of Israel to exist

When isreal colonized part of Egypt (Siani) from 1967 - 1973, we had the same attitude and all our aim was to get our land back and we were able to do that in 1973 war, They are recognized by us after we were able to get our land back. So let them return the land of the palestian to them and i am sure that the palestinan won't mind to recognize them. By the way Poirot recognizing Isreal by Egypt is a piece of paper at the end ( peace treaty) but the egyptians themselves, no way they totally condmn them and is very hard to change this and the isreali know this quiet well

I see that over the past ten years Israel has moved a lot in trying to carve up a two-nation state where both the Jews and Palestinians can live in peace. Israel has even used its army to forcefully remove settlers from both Gaza and the West Bank.

Who said this Isreali has been putting every obstecle to damafe any thing and this was also encourged by the subjective attiudes of the neighbouring countries. As a palasteinian why should i live with my colonizers in peace, just give me one good reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You are dealing with a country that has a big map inside of their knesit claiming the state of Isreal should start from Egypt until Iraq, are those people willing to do any good, i doubt this. This is only a steryotype from the controlled media

When Fatah wants to negotiate a solution, Hamas kills them in a fratricidal civil war.

This is because we all know that Fatah is an agent for the US and Isreal


I am not defending Hamas by the way cause they also have there big mistakes but there are boarder lines in this issues and million of details, the main boarder line is that palasteinan will never stop fight Isreal to regain their land and the corruption of their government and the subjective attitude of the other arab governments will hinder this. Unless we all unit, the situation will worsen

Poirot, you are not offending any one, as this is your own opinion and definetly opinions contradicts but at the end, respect to one anther is the only thing that matters and this is the part i love and we all have toward each other

manal

Okay, I tried to stay out of this topic, its getting nasty.

Elections in Israel are due in Feb 2009, Mr. Olmert (not a premier candidate this time) sternly being criticised on corruption basis, needs a legacy. Mr. Ehud Barak is the next candidate for premier job, needs something to play on. Get it……

The leaders of India and Pakistan should have their heads examined. Generally, millions of their citizens die of hunger and poverty and they don’t give it a ‘D’. Yes they take on the opportunity to play on the blood of few innocent, pure political manoeuvre.

Do you sometimes get the idea that it is only the leaders who want constant strife? It seems that very few leaders anywhere have any interest in peace, while the people always suffer.

Okay, I tried to stay out of this topic, its getting nasty.

Elections in Israel are due in Feb 2009, Mr. Olmert (not a premier candidate this time) sternly being criticised on corruption basis, needs a legacy. Mr. Ehud Barak is the next candidate for premier job, needs something to play on. Get it……

The leaders of India and Pakistan should have their heads examined. Generally, millions of their citizens die of hunger and poverty and they don’t give it a ‘D’. Yes they take on the opportunity to play on the blood of few innocent, pure political manoeuvre.

 

Do you sometimes get the idea that it is only the leaders who want constant strife? It seems that very few leaders anywhere have any interest in peace, while the people always suffer.

 
 
No one has to feel sorry for my country,i know we have had corrupt politicians and people who have miss presented our religion,terminology of mullah might be right for them,but the true heirs of Prophet's religion are called "Ulama",and these are the ones whose sacrifices can never be forgotten through out our history.
No one can destroy our nation,be it politicians,army or any outside source,yes you can destroy a country,it's infra structure,but as a nation we are still here,after 60 tough years.
I am not sure that whatever happened in Mumbai was done by Pakistanis,our govt is working on it,but IF they were Pakistanis and it's a big IF (as govts of both countries tend to blame each other whenever any thing happens in any of the country) then Pakistan can not be blamed alone,as we have seen terrorist acts of Raw in Pakistan too.I am not saying that whatever happened in Mumbai was right,just telling the facts.

I hold no  enmity towards any country,live and let others live,that should be the policy of every country,I hope one day we'll see a peaceful world working towards more productive causes,i hope misery of my Palestinian brothers will soon end,my prayers are with them.

Zaini.

 If you want to be trully  informed for situation in Gaza proceed to the site of "electronic intifada".
This is the formal Palestinian portal, with articles and news about what's happening in Gaza today.
www.electronicintifada.net.

How much longer before Pakistan even admits that it was Pakistanis who were behind the latest attacks?

Imagine twelve people cross the Naval defence of a regional power of Asia, in a boat  . And they find there way to high security area of Mumbai with loads of guns and ammo. Then they have everything settled in hotels and they have stocks of ammo and food for them to spend time there.Can that get more dumb than this? Why the whole world accepts a ridiculous made-up story by India, but when we say we didn't do it, they don't accept.

Maybe you've heard about Marriot Hotel attack in September 2008 in Islamabad. It was confirmed that a day before, US marines shifted some large boxes to hotel's fifth floor and marines were resident on the same floor. When blast happened at hotel entrance, for no obvious reason, fire broke out at 5th floor. And magically no marine was even minor hurt. Will you accept our story? No, super powers need no explanation, they are not answerable right?? its we who have to try so damn hard to explain our side.

It gives Pakistan's government little credibility when they fire the national security adviser after he admits that the terrorist caught was from Pakistan!

And tell me why does US has to interfere in our personal matter and demand restoration of security advisor. I tell you why, that is the whole problem, US has 100% influence on our administration and establishment. From President to Ministers to Secretaries and all the way to Armed Forces heads, all are hired after approval from US. Why, because they are using us as their policy implementers. Not forgetting the famous Rumsfield threat to Musharraf before Afghan strike "Are you with us or against us". These circumstances, and what options do we have?

And when we talk about accepting, first US should accept that they were the founders of Osama bin Laden platoon, and the honour was done from the hands of ISI. Taliban were trained to be used against Russia. After doing enough to Russia, imagine what some mindless goons armed with all sort of techs and trained only to kil will dol, they keep on doing what they are good at. So we can see the situation at Pak-Afghan border areas, and suicide attacks all over Pakistan in past few years.

India will act and I am sure it will be a disaster for all

Believe me it ain't gonna happen. Both countries have missiles pointed towards each other. It will be a matter of minutes before south asia goes flat. It will be foolish. And India has plans to become the region economic giant, they will never ruin that. This pressure building is all part of a election campaign thats all. Thats the same thing Bush did just before elections, couple of drone and ground troops attack in Northern Pakistan areas adjacent to Afghan border which all ended up in civilian deaths (It is said that when cat gets frustrated, it scratches the pole)

Dear Tariq,

Us North Americans are the first to admit that the US government is opportunistic and the root of most problems here and abroad.  We are also the first to say that Bush is a homicidal, ignorant moron who has used every trick and manipulation in the world.  It is also true that the US is probably responsible for creating Bin Laden, and Bush was re elected into office the second time due to his scare tactics.  As Andy has said before, in a discussion relating to Singapore (withholding information from the public and lack of democracy in Singapore) it is important for all of us (along with acknowledging the good in our countries) to acknowledge the horrible things our countries and government are capable of.  I am of Indian decent, born and raised in Canada and living in North America and I have friends all over the world -  and I know that there are wonderful things about all of these countries and there are also deep routed troubles and things that need to change about all of them.  As long as we keep blaming everyone else and not looking at what is wrong with us nothing will get better. 

Just my two cents - I hope for peace,

Sharmin

Sharmin,

I have many times pointed at my own country in my previous comments. We people agree that pak govt and admin is full of filthy people and enemies from within and outside are all making use of those in govt for their own benefit.

"No justice No Peace" we all know. Whether this justice is required by a single person, a group of people or a whole nation. There is no other way of achieving peace. Hold a referendum or fair elections in Kashmir and their will be peace. Stop strengthening looters and drug leaders in Afghanistan and there will be peace. Withdraw forces from Iraq and apologize in front of whole world for screwing Iraq on a false alarm and there will be peace. Stop colonizing Palestine land and allow food and medicines through and there will be peace.