Gaza massacre

We all have problems in our native countries. The US has plenty of discrimination and Muslims are one of the targets, but only one, because a certain percentage of Americans are small minded enough to hate just about anyone who isn't them. Jake, I don't know about you, but I hear the term "towel head" just a bit too much and I live in a fairly liberal area of the country. Let's not be blind to the obvious. Which of course leads to, please don't be blind to the fact that terrorist attacks have originated in Pakistan that were aimed at India. Of course, there are plenty attacks against Muslims in India too. What is common to both? These attacks are not supported by 99%+ of the population in either country. Be honest. The average person just wants to live his or her life and wishes extremists would get a new hobby.

And if anyone is really attacking religion here, they're doing an awful job of it. I think we all have different views (I have no religion but was brought up Christian. I believe one can be very spiritual without embracing any religion. Anyone want to convert me? Fat chance.    ) I can respect your religion and regardless of what anyone thinks, they should be able to tolerate anyone else's religion. What bothers me in this whole thing was mentioned earlier in this thread. Why is it, that we always hear reports of Muslim terrorists etc. but never Jewish terrorism or Christian terrorism and on? A terrorist's religion probably has little relevance as none of these religions teach violence. Once you label someone Muslim, it does create a public perception that we see exhibited in Jake's post. Although Jake was right about some things in his post, he got off track by using the Muslim label, when nutjob extremists would be more appropriate. What does the supposed religion have to do with it? Nothing. These idiots may try to justify themselves with religion but they are not supported by fact or belief. Muslims do not support these people and most Muslims wish the terrorists would go away, as they have made it bad for all. Please don't label terrorists by a religion. It's a joke. They have no religious credibility regardless of what they try to claim.

And while everyone was arguing this nonsense last night, I stayed up until almost 4 am posting several new topics that I came across while learning more about iron measurement. Any chance that we can get back to the topics related to thalassemia?

Was I fooling myself when I thought that we were a group of people who were above all of this?  That we did not care about which country we are from and how our leaders using dirty politics would prefer that we dislike one another?  

During the partition in India - friendly neighbours who happily co existing began killing one another.  I used to wonder how that could happen, now I know.  

I also know that my grandfather hid many muslims in his home during the partition because he remembered that they were his friends and he did not care what religion they were.  To this day my family members cross the border to visit these families  - and the pakistani families treat our family with such love and respect that I cannot wait to go visit them one day.

I have utmost respect for Islam, Sikhism, Christianity, Judaism, (especially Buddhism - although I am Sikh) - and all others.  These are religions intended to make us live good lives and to love and respect one another.  Religion is all much bigger than me and above me - how can I ever condemn religion regardless of who practices it?  Please guys - let's not go there.  

We are here to discuss something that transcends all of our borders - Thalassemia - thalassemia does not care if you are muslim, hindu, sikh, christian - or what country you reside in.  If educated people like us can not see above the dirty politics, spreading of hate and propaganda then who will?  Obviously we all have allegiance and patriotism toward our own countries - as we should if we want them to be better - however what about our neighbours?  How is anyone going to be safe in their homes if they don't learn to feel compassion toward their neighbour - regardless of what our govt's tell us?  

I look forward to the day that I can visit both India and Pakistan - and experience the beautiful people and culture.  We are all friends - I am not willing to accept a division amongst our friends here.  We were able to discuss all of this in a much friendlier way when it first started - let's not move away from that.  I have learned a lot from our muslim friends lately, I am accustomed to Western points of view - this has been a real education.

Sharmin

Andy,

I did see your posts - thank you for finding the valuable information.   

Sharmin

One last word and if you -all- wish let's finish this topic. Allow me that, as I was the one who started it.

On my visits to many Arabic countries, I realised that religion dominates a Muslim's life. Every action, every intention, every perspective in their lives has to be seen and dealt with under the prism of religion. Apart from being a religion, Islam is a way of life. Their way of life. I respect that. This made me compare their way of life and our western way of life and it seemed to me we are lacking in being serious with our lives, always pursuing material things. Religion is left behind in western societies and people who follow it are considered to be picturesque.
And all this comes from a person who is not much attached to religion, who respects though true faith when she sees it.

Lena.

Lena and others,

I am sorry, but after reading some part of this post - I would like to post. I usually don't post on topics like this - but as this post has somethings which have really offended India - I would like to post for those who don't really know about India. While Poirot has mentioned some part of what I want to say, but I would like to point out.

The most hurting point was someone talking about India being so-called Secularism. I am proud to say the following, which not a lot of people might be aware of
In India, we had a lady born a Catholic (Sonia Gandhi) stepping aside so a Sikh (Manmohan Singh) could be sworn in by a muslim president (Abdul Kalam) to lead a nation that is majority Hindu and the biggest democracy in the world.

Former President Abdul Kalam of India said the following (who by the way is a muslim - which I would not have pointed out but as this post has some harsh comments on India - I would like to point)
In 3000 years of our history people from all over the world have come and invaded us, captured our lands, conquered our minds. From Alexander onwards - The Greeks, the Turks, the Moguls, the Portuguese, the British, the French, the Dutch, all of them came and looted us, took over what was ours. But, we have not done this to any other nation. We have not conquered anyone. We have not grabbed their land, their culture, their history and tried to enforce our way of life on them. - Why? -> "Because, we respect the freedom of others"

So, as most of the people have mentioned - Let's Stop Going off track and use this website for what it is for and let Andy and his team support the thals - they are trying to help.

Was I fooling myself when I thought that we were a group of people who were above all of this?  
\Sharmin

]

Hi Sharmin

Put it mildly yes you were 

Basically human-being thinks we are all  above "this and that", but when tested, as I have said before we more or less comes with same distingtive trait "we are all the same" It's the nature of the beast.

I was told once there are three things  to avoid in discussions, to prevent aggravation, they are as follows
. Religion
.politics
.Money

Kathy

Kathy,

I guess we were headed for trouble when we covered 2/3 of the 'forbidden' topics - he he he
we can't solve the world's problems but we can have a good laugh - 

Thanks Kathy,

Sharmin

Sharmin

Was I fooling myself when I thought that we were a group of people who were above all of this?  That we did not care about which country we are from and how our leaders using dirty politics would prefer that we dislike one another?   

you were not my dear because at that point everyone in this thread was discussing about pure politics and goverments regimes and many were critisizng their own governments including me.
But when discussion is diverted to critising religions, this is the awful part as Andy had said.

Religion is purly a relation between man and God and no one is allowed to interfere in it. People are free to believe or not to believe but  are not free to judge others beliefs and deciding that they are ''silly'' or not.
I am not supposed to defend my religion because i am not supposed to be critised for what i believe in the first place. I have been online daily for more than two and half years and it is the first time for me to read people addressing others by the catholic xyz or the muslim abc, or the sikh efg.. what should this imply.  Should i treat someone differently cause i got to know his/her religion. Do we deal with people, manners,emotions or we deal with the title of the religion. Even in books that deal with the comparison of religions ( don't know the exact term for this science, you never read about anyone saying this is better than that, but they just compare the philosophy and essense behind each religion. As Jade said, religion in gereral is like  a bunch of rules that you have, some people comply and others don't, that is why it is just a relation between God and man and God only is the one who will say whether you were right or wrong.

Therefore what is needed is complete respect to others thoughts and beliefs. What changed the manner of this thread was that by the end, no respect was there. It is okay to differ but it is important to have respect.

In this site, many times the majority of members wouldn't agree about someone's decision, let's say to transfuse or not, but at the end we all support and respect the decision made so it would be more important that this will be valid  on biggar issues.

Through sharing many of our private, personal thoughts and anxiety and even prayers, we have built togather a kind of friendship though most of us didn't meet before. This unique friendship should have avoided hurting one another even if we don't agree about the other's point of view. This what makes the difference and this what is called RESPECT.

Anyway, please let us all remember that each and everyone of us had once prayed for the other when something was wrong or had a stressful situation. Let this prevent you from hurting the other and let this too remind you not to judge ''all'' for ''one'' 

Finally i would like to thank everyone here who thought of the other before typing on his keyboard and also like to thank Jade and Lena for their correct analytical views that just reveal respect

manal

Do not confuse religion with tradition. When this whole dicussion came up about muslims and scarfs; my own sweet christian grandmother was wearing one when she left her house. When the discussion kept going on and they say a lot of bad things she let it home. It is almost two years ago she passed away from pancreas cancer, but today I showed her family pictures at a b'day party (because we do not know all the people in the pictures) and there was even one of her when she was 16 and wearing a scarf.

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I learn every day new things for all different kind of people and I would like to see that others would have that too

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This weeks has happend something very, very good in my country. We have a politian who is a racist (He is and I know I would be hate for this). For example (his words) 'the Quran is like mein kampf. Netherlands will be overwhelmed (tsunami) by Muslims and many more wich I can not even remember. Oh yes 'we should deport all Muslims'. Btw he is the one with the blond dyed hair.
In summer of 2008 there was a 5 sentences message about him. They reported that he went every week to the ambassade of Israel and I never forgot that report. He is the idiot who made that silly film.

To get to the point: Students of the University of Amsterdam did report the police that they were hurt by his words and that because of his words our population has been split up. I planned to join them, but through all the probs with dad I forgot to do it. (ofcourse I still can do it). The Public prosecutor has said that there was not enough evidence.
So they ask the court to say of there is enough evidence of his saying do cross the frontier of expression of view. They said it did. So there will be a lawsuit.

Sadly, we have family wo think like that. In the past I had friends who thought like they, but I dropped them. It is not worth to try to keep the friendship going and no, i could never convince them. Maybe the future they wil learn not to judge so hard and not to believe everything the media/world says.

Dore,

You have spoken some real words of wisdom here. We do need to learn for ourselves and not rely on media portrayals of the world. Because of my involvement with thalassemia, I have been to two officially Muslim nations. I was warned by people in my own family that they would try to kill me there. Of course, when you know sweethearts like Akka and Maako, it is very hard to take those warnings seriously and I didn't. What I have found are truly wonderful people and never anyone who wished me harm. I was embraced by Iranian shopkeepers in Dubai. I was made to feel like a native in the Maldives. This is reality but rather than keeping an open mind, many people choose to live in fear of each other and there is no reason it has to be like that. Life is so much better when you are open to the world.

My Special Thanks to Dore and Lena,

For understanding the situation very wisely 

Zaini.

I was warned by people in my own family that they would try to kill me there.

I totally want that thinking to change. I mean, do they really think that in every muslim country there are armed men roaming on roads looking for someone to kill, beating women etc. Thats awful .... and our own fault i must admit.

What relieves me is that still there are people who think out of the box and try to see beyond. I too would thank Andy, lena and Dore for understanding.

Religion can not make a person good or bad, it comes from the inside and the home and circumstances in which we grow up. And after that its upto us which part of brain we use, thinking, or just seeing and hearing.

"If a thief is muslim, it does mean that Islam preaches robbery."
Sorry in the last post I missed the word "not", I meant to say:
If a thief is muslim, it does not mean that Islam preaches robbery.

Sorry for the mistake.

Thank u Manal, I hoped I have cleared certain misconceptions a bit.
Jade

Peace, guys. Looks like my comment touched a nerve with some of you folks.

I will not apologise for my comments, but I will provide the background for them:

I am an Atheist, have been so since the age of 12-14 years. I realise that most of you on this group would be unaware of this fact and hence my comments would seem to be hurting one religion, Islam, in this case.

Let me say this - I "make fun" of all religions, including and especially my birth religion, Sanatana Dharma (more widely known as hinduism). My wife gets very annoyed with me at times, because she says I am constantly taking pot shots at the Church, and she is a RC christian. But then, she sees me do the same thing with my mom, and her hindu prayers and practices. So, no one is exempt!!!

I realise that some of you take your religion very seriously - but, so do I, just from a different perspective. If you post prayers here, should I not have the same right to post my criticisms? Just some food for thought ....... However, I will not post any more critical remarks about religion here, I have plenty of other forums!

BTW, how about those new atheist buses in London?!! Anyone here who is in London, do take a ride for me on one of those buses. I will even send you the bus fare!

Cheers and with no malice to anyone here,

Poirot

Peace, guys. Looks like my comment touched a nerve with some of you folks.

I will not apologise for my comments, but I will provide the background for them:

I am an Atheist, have been so since the age of 12-14 years. I realise that most of you on this group would be unaware of this fact and hence my comments would seem to be hurting one religion, Islam, in this case.

Let me say this - I "make fun" of all religions, including and especially my birth religion, Sanatana Dharma (more widely known as hinduism). My wife gets very annoyed with me at times, because she says I am constantly taking pot shots at the Church, and she is a RC christian. But then, she sees me do the same thing with my mom, and her hindu prayers and practices. So, no one is exempt!!!

I realise that some of you take your religion very seriously - but, so do I, just from a different perspective. If you post prayers here, should I not have the same right to post my criticisms? Just some food for thought ....... However, I will not post any more critical remarks about religion here, I have plenty of other forums!

BTW, how about those new atheist buses in London?!! Anyone here who is in London, do take a ride for me on one of those buses. I will even send you the bus fare!

Cheers and with no malice to anyone here,

Poirot

Same here, but I became interested in those stories. Yes, I have heard from and I saw this buses at the news. It is a good initaitive. I mean you must hear all arguments so long as they do not heard people to hard and I do not think they do that with those buses. You need to find someone else, because I live on the other side of the water. I never been in London and it is actually very close.

We do not have to agree with every human. We only must try to understand each human.

Dore

P.S. I read your previous posts "I truly envy Europe with its "post-religious" thinking."
Europe is changing. In my opinion people are going back to the churches. I believe that is the situation in the Netherlands. Poland, Romania and probably more people of the East are pretty religious.  These are my opinions so the situation may be different. But this is what is happening in my environment.