Led Zeppelin - Kashmir

Poirot,
Yes, this is not relevant to thal and comes off far more like an audition for a right wing US radio show than anything that belongs in a forum about thalassemia. The internet is loaded with such forums and once again I will ask that people who want to vent their politics, to please use those forums. It is easy to shoot fish in a barrel, Poirot, as this group is mostly not equipped to argue the pros and cons of your statements, but please be advised that I am, and that this right wing clap trap that you are spouting is so full of holes that I'm surprised you haven't been offered a job in the Bush White House. I must say that at least you refrained from using the term Islamic Fascists, that Mr Bush so proudly sputters, but your comparison of Islamic fundamentalism to Nazi Germany is incredibly offensive to muslims everywhere. If any country on earth is to be accused of global expansionism, it would unfortunately be my own beloved USA. With troops in well over 100 countries around the globe and the constant manipulation of elections and governmments throughout the world, the US is surely the only country that can fit the bill. With a "defense" budget more than the defense budgets of the rest of the world combined, I see my own country as the major threat to freedom around the world. When I see my own country refusing to recognize fairly elected governments because it doesn't agree with their politics and backing the completely unjustified invasions of Lebanon and Gaza as the world watches in horror, in attempts to unseat the democratically elected Palestinian government and also to remove the elected presence of Hizbollah in Lebanon, thereby totally destabilizing the elected pro-west government, I don't see anything that can be defended, and I see full well why the governments in countries like Syria and Iran, that are threatened on a daily basis by US government officials would issue the so called "threatening statements.

I have been a guest in two muslim countries and for the most part have found the people to be far friendlier and less judgemental than westerners. Many of these people belong to this group and I must say I am flabbergasted at this continuing insulting diatribe that never seems to end. Take a hint from Sajid, please. Stop insulting people because of your own biased views of the world. This may be the thing to do all over the internet but I can see no reason why this subtle, "sugar coated" fomenting of hatred belongs in our group.

And one word on what for some unknown reason became a political thread after AD posted a classic Led Zeppelin song. Poirot, when India holds the long promised referendum on Kashmir and the Kashmiris themselves choose to remain part of India, then I will accept your analysis of the situation there. Until these disenfranchised people are given the right to self determination I will remain a skeptic.

From http://www.nancho.net/fdlap/kashmir/jkstates.html

...a referendum on and in Kashmir, internationally supervised, will again put India in a different league from one defined by sub-continental squabbles - ... The "worst" possibility is that Kashmir may not choose to remain with India. Is that too bad a prospect compared to the price India pays in blood, money, and a general marring of reputation when the troops "occasionally" misbehave. A Kashmir referendum will also blunt global condemnation of the sub-continent as a mad hatter area full of nuke-wielding hot-heads. As well as force Pakistan to drop its belligerence, both verbal and clandestine. These are benefits that can be grabbed only by a government with vision and courage.

I would say that if a referendum were to result in Kashmir continuing as a part of India, it would deflate the terrorist argument completely. If India is so sure the Kashmiris wish to remain part of India, then a referendum should become a top priority. If not, then India must look itself square in the mirror and ask why they are refusing the basic right of self determination to the Kashmiris. Until you accept that even the Kashmiris have this basic right, your argument will hold no water.

And to everyone; until we stop allowing self serving politicians and media to manipulate us and our beliefs, democracy will be nothing more than a false dream.

Ok, Andy, no more political posts from me on this forum. I will take my political musings to a different blog.  Although, I must say that I was REALLY surprised to find the post being characterised as offensive. I thought I was very balanced in my views. And, I am far from your "right wing", and closer to your centre, I would think. 

One final comment on the following:

Poirot, when India holds the long promised referendum on Kashmir and the Kashmiris themselves choose to remain part of India, then I will accept your analysis of the situation there. Until these disenfranchised people are given the right to self determination I will remain a skeptic.

From http://www.nancho.net/fdlap/kashmir/jkstates.html

I would say that if a referendum were to result in Kashmir continuing as a part of India, it would deflate the terrorist argument completely. If India is so sure the Kashmiris wish to remain part of India, then a referendum should become a top priority.

India agreed to a referendum in Kashmir in 1948, because Prime Minister Nehru thought it would be the right thing to do. Something, I fully agree with. But, to hold the referendum today, you have to revert Kashmir to the state that it was in 1948. Today:

1. Kashmiri Pandits (30% of the population) have been driven out of the state in waves of ethnic cleansing by the militants.
2. Pakistan holds about 30% of Kashmir
3. Of the 30%, Pashtun tribals (linked to Afghanistan Talibs) control 60% (the northern areas)

So, how do you propose to hold a free and fair referendum? I believe this is no longer even an option in the peace talks between India and Pakistan.

BTW, the "disenfranchised" people of Indian Kashmir elected their own govt two years back in a free and fair election. The govt consists of ex-militants too, who decided to contest the elections and other past pro-freedom parties. This new govt has been investing in infrastructure, with the help of Delhi. And, the tourists are flowing back. In fact, when six tourists were killed by grenade attacks on 11 July this year, all the tourist agencies held a big march in Srinagar in protest against the militants. If left to their own devices, I think Kashmiris are okay with their new govt. It is also up to Delhi not to screw it up again, as they have done so often in the past.

That was just to let you the know the ground realities.

Cheers

Poirot

PS: Here are some articles on Kashmiri terrorist training camps from a PAKISTANI magazine Herald (part of Dawn group of newspapers), which was carried in an Indian paper, for people wanting to know about the "indigenous" struggle of the Kashmiris.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/10978.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/10982.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/10980.html

:smile2 Well put Andy!

This is how a moderator on this site should really be! But I'm afraid this thread will never end until everyone agrees with you and go to other forums to vent out their steam. Maybe you can enforce that by locking such threads that have conflict and no relation to medical issues which can be helpful for everyone on this site.

  I wonder if this had to do something with the fact that Danielle had left us boys alone for a while

Stop insulting people because of your own biased views of the world.

Bias, like beauty, is always in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder!!!

Hmmmm, how do we deal with the moderator's bias, then?

 

Poirot

Ahem, Can I say something Andy & Poirot?

Lets not just blame the English for all the woes that plaque those conquered/captured countries.

The CIA has been bed fellows with the Taliban/Al-Quaida much before 9/11 happened. Pakistan of course to please its masters have been equally to be blamed for the mis-adventure.

Andy as far as Kashmir is concerned let me tell you that his Highness the self aointed President Pervez Musharaf doesnt want freedom for Kashmir he wants so called freedom for "Jammu & Kashmir". His words on TV not mine. Secondly I am surprised on how could a "democratic country" like Pakistan promise freedom when its own people have none. FYI, Cut the crap on the referendum on Kashmir, its just to mess with the politicos in America, I speak on behalf of every Indian who is a Hindu, we will never give Jammu away you do not know the significance this region has for Hindus to try take it from our hands would be quivalent to giving Washington DC with the White House to Osama Bin Laden. Go ahead make my day...

As much as USA might not know about other countries like ours we do know a great deal about your countries history. My dear friends let me tell you a story that I tell my proud Indian countrymen about a President by the Name of Abrahim Lincolin.

He had an important question in front of him a similar question that Jinah put in front of our great Mahtama Gandhi.

The question "Would you rather parition your country or fight a civil war" and I quote Mr. Lincoln "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free..."

50 years have passed, the US had a civil war and the wusses in India went for partition, we both know how the story ends. One with a free country the other with a monkey on its back. We will get rid of the monkey just how long our patience will last with the US is the moot question.

Ahh we are again repeating history arent we, US did this in Afganistan now it will use Pakistan and when the condom is used the US will throw it away just like Afganistan.

and to the people who wish to have locked threads, nah it doesnt work new threads come up.

I like to point out that Mr. Vizarani and Mr. Poirot are teaming up supporting each other views to extend their own political thoughts, using analogies to Condoms and Nazism and are involved in the conduct not suitable for a civilised forum. I also noted that Mr. Vizarani is willing to keep going on and not getting the message.

This forum was never meant to disgrace any religion, culture or race and I am surprised since when it is a norm to conduct in such behaviour.

I register my protest in the strongest terms.

Vazirani's ramblings are almost comical. Now Kashmir is the equal of Washington DC? Sorry, but Washinton DC is the capitol of the US and not some annexed territory.

Canadian Family, these guys don't get it. They don't understand how they are insulting anyone with their ongoing tag team bashing of muslims. I will invite all muslims to speak up and tell us what is so offensive about their statements.

This Indian nationalism may sound good to jingoists but it is the foundation for many more years of strife.

Andy

I dont think anyone is out to get each other or insult each other.. these are the world facts for every intelligent people to  see and understand... More over this is an open forum in the General category.. called General Chatter.Yes we are here to support each other  on Medical issues.. but for that you have other discussion headings. Then why keep this category at all?

Moreoever,we here are all intelligent , educated inviduals who can surely take part in the world happenings and appreciate any healthy discussions. Where were the objectionable sentences in Pirots or Ashish's postings..I didnt find any.. infact I thought it was really thought provoking.
Infact all young people of any country should realise where all the trouble is stemming from and not just be biased .

Why does everyone take this so personally? 

Shikha

If you can't see how comparing muslims to nazi Germany is offensive I don't know what else I can say. I'll throw this one to Sajid and ask him to eloquently explain why all this anti muslim talk is so offensive, since what Canadian Family said has been ignored. Sajid, feel free to say whatever you like in this thread. I cannot even begin to express what a muslim would feel about this.

What don't you get about what they said? I'm not muslim and I easily see how offensive this whole thread has gotten.

Quote from: Canadian_Family on August 21, 2006, 02:55:18 PM

I like to point out that Mr. Vizarani and Mr. Poirot are teaming up supporting each other views to extend their own political thoughts, using analogies to Condoms and Nazism and are involved in the conduct not suitable for a civilised forum. I also noted that Mr. Vizarani is willing to keep going on and not getting the message.

This forum was never meant to disgrace any religion, culture or race and I am surprised since when it is a norm to conduct in such behaviour.

Vazirani's ramblings are almost comical. Now Kashmir is the equal of Washington DC? Sorry, but Washinton DC is the capitol of the US and not some annexed territory.

Yes isnt it comical, that I should compare Washington DC to Kashmir, however would you give it is the question I am asking? When your country cannot allow a single square inch of its territory to be occurpied by someone other than an American then why is it that everyone else tells the Indians to get out of Kashmir?

FYI, India gave Hindu Dominated Sindh Province in exchange for a pre-dominantly Muslim region of Kashmir. Now your telling me that the acession is also a dispute, why am I not surprised?

Every war Pakistan has had with India they have lost, but as I mentioned Indians being wusses always lost more. Even though Poirot may not agree with what I say now but I found the Pakistanis to be far better adapted at this game then we are. They have had 3 official wars and 1 incursion still they get out of it better than any other country. I bet each military man still itches like to have a go at India again.

Although I am not a fan of George Bush but I do admire him at least he has the balls to say to the world "Your with us or against us" If we had a man in office like him I will bet you anything that no one would eye kashmir or maybe not considering that Osama continues to try to get people into your country.

I still remember the Pervez Mushraff on TV on 9/11 when he made a statement condeming the act, fully realising that he was in deep shit. I bet his wife still cant get the skid marks out of those military pants of his.

Comical, hehe .... yeeeah

Hi everyone.
I believe that if the head of states spent less on amunition and defence forces and more on health and research.
We all would be better off.(some will call me naive ,still I'm entitle to my point view) (LOL)
I also believe that on this website, like everywhere else, we would never come to a consensus  on this subject[/b In which case lets agree to disagree :hug
I found it all to be really sad because none is the wiser and in the midst of it all  civillians  always pay the deviden with thier lives, such a shame.Having said that,as long as there are wars we are all in the same boat sailling to nowhere.
regards Kathy

Ashish,

If you said someone was trying to cut Delhi out of India it would make a much better comparison than saying Kashmir, which is an annexed area that has never been given the opportunity determine their own future.

I found a nice article on this subject of Kashmir at http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20030208.htm

This ... lunacy can be multiplied a hundred times to get an idea of the kind of damage this mindless hostility is inflicting on millions of people in South Asia. The entire region is hostage to the unending Kashmir dispute with trade and travel at a virtual standstill. The current state of affairs is enough to make any rational and reasonable person despair.

Of course, we know that there are powerful elements in both countries who want nothing better than for the status quo to remain unchanged: the defence, intelligence and foreign office establishments in India and Pakistan thrive on confrontation. Their budgets are bloated beyond the capacity of both poverty-stricken nations, and yet year after year, the generals and the spooks get whatever they want, plus a few extras...In Pakistan where the political class is basically an appendage of the army, not a single question raised about military expenditure. As a matter of fact, no details about the defence budget are provided to the public or its representatives.

Even in India with its mature democracy and seasoned politicians, the defence budget is a sacred cow, and the government of the day falls over its own feet in its indecent haste to give the generals, the air marshals and the admirals whatever new toys they want...It would be pointless to go over the tired arguments that have been repeated ad nauseam from both sides of the great divide. However, as all the citizens of India and Pakistan have been made parties to the dispute by their incompetent leaders, perhaps it is high time to ask them how they feel about Kashmir. So maybe a referendum in both countries is the way forward with New Delhi and Islamabad agreeing to abide by the wishes of the majority. The referendum would be supervised by the UN, and a single question would be put to all adult citizens in India and Pakistan:

"Is Kashmir more important than jobs, education, roads, electricity and medical care for you and your family?" If the majority says 'no', then both governments should withdraw their forces from the parts of Kashmir they control and allow the Kashmiris to decide their own destiny without interference from India or Pakistan.

Yes, the US is by far the worst offender when it comes to bloated military budgets, but why do we allow this? Fear. Read some of these posts and the whole backbone of them is fear. For God's sake people, wake up! Kathy's post makes excellent sense. Think about the problems that could be solved with the money that is wasted on military budgets. Yet, here we have people blindly saying rah, rah, let's kick their butts! As long as people allow themselves to be so easily manipulated by politicians and generals there will be no hope for change. It begins within and as long as you are saying we should kick anyone's butt, YOU are part of the problem! When you change your own beliefs and attitude and stop worshipping war as a solution then maybe the world can evolve and humanity can take care of itself and the earth.

If you can't see how comparing muslims to nazi Germany is offensive I don't know what else I can say.

You drag my quotes out of context, Andy. Substituting part for the whole is not a good idea.

I was comparing the Islamic militants and radicals (and NOT all muslims or the community) to the Nazis, if you take care to read my post carefully and not jump to conclusions. If Canadian can actually point out what offends them, then I can redress the point.

Are you saying that I am not even allowed to question the extremists, irrespective of whatever they may do or say?

Poirot

Well Andy you asked me ,
               This entire thread is pretty much offensive to Muslims. First lets discuss Kashmir.

Kashmir is a delicate issue. During the British rule, this territory was sold for 7.5 million rupees (app US$166 at that time) to a Sikh Gulab Singh. Tell me how would an entire Muslim nation feel if it was agreed initially at the time of partition of South Asian Subcontinent that all Muslim majority areas will become Pakistan but Gulab Singh fled to India and asked for the armed forces to take over the Muslim majority Kashmir. Ever since Indians ramble that Kashmir is "Their" property.

The fate of millions of people can't just be sold or taken over!

Next lets discuss hatred towards the Muslims.

Before the British rule, the Subcontinent was ruled by Muslim Kings known as the Mughals. It is quite likely that being ruled by them for hundreds of years, the Hindus developed a sort of jealousy and at the time of departure of the British, the Hindus tried their level best to prevent the partition and requested the transfer of entire rule to the majority Hindus. Of course that couldn't happen since Muslim and Hindu lifestyle and religion is poles apart and couldn't coexist (which was the main reason of the fall of the Mughal empire as the Hindus acted as a Hippocrates and led in the invasion of the British). Now even with Pakistan in existence, the Hindus still have the same hatred and jealousy which I'm afraid you can see reflecting in all these posts.

Unlike me, Poirot is a master of words. He can twist and turn words. He is blaming Islam and it's followers and then says that he is pointing at the Terrorists knowing (and being told by me uptillion times) that "Terrorists Have NO RELIGION". He keeps on mixing up between "Islamic Extremists" and "Terrorists" I'll try to explain it again. This time read it slowly:

Believe it or not being an "Islamic Extremist" is supposed to be the best thing! as there is total peace in Islam and being extremists is supposed to mean that you follow all the commandments of God strictly which are Pray, give charity, respect everyone and spread peace etc.

Unfortunately these terrorists are termed "Islamic Extremists" which they are not and they are doing totally opposite of what God has revealed to the Holy Prophet. Which means they have nothing to do with religion.

So it is these terrorists that are giving the Real Islamic world a bad name. Next time be more careful linking someone with a religion who disobeys all commandments of a religion.

Hi Sajid,

You've explained that well!  The only problem is that these terrorists CLAIM to follow Islam.    So for those of us who do not practice Islam it is very difficult to know whether they are following the teachings or not.  However, now you've explained the situation those of us on this message board will understand!  It is very hard to get your head around when the media tells you every day that "Islamic extremists" have bombed somewhere.  If only you could correct their terminology! 

Religion is something that people feel strongly about, and I guess the terrorists take advantage of that.

By the way, were Pakistan and India united under British rule?  And if so, how did that work?

SalD.